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TOPIC HISTORY

Energy has mass



Statements

Statement Type Title Description Proposed Probability Author History Last Updated
STATEMENT Energy has mass

Energy.

1 E=mc^2 is not the solution to E^2=(mc^2)^2. The solution is + or – E= + or – mc^2.

2 E=mc^2 is said to show how mass (kg) 'no longer exists as or with mass but 'converts into' massless energy (kgm^2/s^2) and visa versa.

1st Equals does not mean, anywhere else in maths, science or language; converts into. Everywhere else in maths, science and language equals means; both sides of the equation or statement are just two different ways of saying the exact same thing. Ordinary water ice = ordinary frozen water, frozen water does not disappear and convert into ice. Feline = cat. Any statement that equate equals with converts into, is nonsense.

 2nd Energy is, wait for it, kgm^2/s^2. Mass times the speed of light squared, mass (kg) times c (m/s) squared. Energy has mass, as shown by an understanding of maths, units and what an equals sign actually means.

FTJSMbyEED (C) 2012 Angela Michelle Joy Stahlfest-Moller.

E^2 = matter with existence in time, volume, mass and charge spinning with respect to itself (mc^2)^2 + the same matter with existence in time, volume, mass and charge moving with respect to everything else (pc)^2. © 

Without matter, with existence in time, volume, mass and charge, moving per second along a distance there is no energy.

Without matter moving per second there is no force.

Without matter moving there is no momentum.

Without matter there is no thing, nothing.
Nothing except empty space existing in time.

 

Massless is not possible. FTJSMbyEED (C) 2012 Angela Michelle Joy Stahlfest-Moller.

 

1.0 FTJSMbyEED (C) 2012 Angela Stahlfest-Moller Details 2016-09-28 22:27:34.0
STATEMENT What matters about words is that they have well defined definitions that are understood

It doesn't matter if the way the words are used are somewhat different in one context than another, as long as it is understood what is meant.

E=Mc^2 computes the quantity of energy you get when you convert some matter into energy. It has been verified in experiments. It provides rules that get the mass right in numerous particle accelerator experiments. 

As it happens, I have no idea what you mean when you say "Energy has mass", but what is meant by
E=Mc^2 is well understood by physicists and practically applied frequently

1.0 Eric Details 2016-09-28 22:27:34.0
STATEMENT photons are massless particles

They have energy, and momentum, but they have no rest mass, hence they can not be brought to a halt, which massive particles can be, but can travel at the speed c, which massive particles can not.


1.0 Eric Details 2016-09-28 22:27:34.0
STATEMENT Massless is not possible.

Hi Eric. Thankyou for the response. :)

My challenge is:
If too much simple reality is denied as false, then all that is left is; too much complex fantasy accepted as truth.

All you have done is stated the common belief I was chalenging in the origanal statement.

Stating a commonly held view as true, simply because it is a commonly held view has quite often been shown to be wrong. Earth as the centre of everything for example.

Show me where else = means converts into? :)
Show me where exactly the logic and maths of this is wrong? :)


FTJSMbyEED (C) 2012 Angela Michelle Joy Stahlfest-Moller.
The simple reality is:
Mass = kg = Kilogram. 
Momentum = kgm/s = mass moving = Trevor. :)
Force = kgm/s^2 = (kgm/s)/s = mass moving per second = Newton. 
Energy = kgm^2/s^2 = ((kgm/s)/s)m = mass moving per second along a distance = Joule.
All these units contain kg = mass. 
Massless is not possible, it is a fantasy. 
FTJSMbyEED (C) 2012 Angela Michelle Joy Stahlfest-Moller.

As for the photon:

I agree it has energy (kgm^2/s^2), kilograms((m/s)/s)m, therefore following maths, science, logic and language; energy and the photon have mass.

I agree it has momentum, which is by definition mass times speed, therefore the photon has mass.

FTJSMbyEED (C) 2012 Angela Michelle Joy Stahlfest-Moller.
Photons are created at emmision from the same bits that make protons, etc that are not currently parts of protons, etc, with full momentum transferred from emission source and inherent in the simple bits.

Photons can be bought to rest, that is what detection and absorbtion of them is.
When detection or absorbtion happens they come apart back into the simple bits they formed from at emission and their momentum is retained by the simple bits and/or transfered to object detecting or absorbing.
That is what is happening when the sun heats us.
FTJSMbyEED (C) 2012 Angela Michelle Joy Stahlfest-Moller.

Once I have energy, then dimensions, posted and discussion started I will post about the simple bits. :)

c is a max as defined by a tiny photon, of course that max cannot be reached by more massive objects. That fact in no why shows that photons are massless. :)

1.0 FTJSMbyEED (C) 2012 Angela Stahlfest-Moller Details 2016-09-28 22:27:34.0
STATEMENT The problem is that the words do not have well defined and understood definitions.

Hi Eric. Thankyou for the response. :)

I agree with: It doesn't matter if the way the words are used are somewhat different in one context than another, as long as it is understood what is meant.

My challenge is: The problem is that the words do not have well defined and understood definitions.

Ask a million different ordinary people to define energy and you will get close to a million different answers.
Ask a million different scientists studying energy to define energy and will still get a hundred thousand or more different answers.

FTJSMbyEED (C) 2012 Angela Michelle Joy Stahlfest-Moller.
I use 17 words to fully define energy: Energy is matter with existence in time, volume, charge and mass moving per second along a distance. :)

Force is harder because there are 2 types.
1. The gravitational, elctromanetic, weak nuclear and strong nuclear forces are fundamental forces produced by matter, are infinitely directional towards or away from the center and do not require movement. F = mass * acceleration applies so long as it is remembered the acceleration is due to the force produced by the matter
2. All other forces are due to matter moving per second, F = kg(m/s)/s and have a single constant or changing direction that is always the direction of movement of the matter.
FTJSMbyEED (C) 2012 Angela Michelle Joy Stahlfest-Moller.

Your statement: E=Mc^2 computes the quantity of energy you get when you convert some matter into energy; denies the simple reality that = does not mean converts into.
Your statements: It has been verified in experiments. It provides rules that get the mass right in numerous particle accelerator experiments; show that measurements follow the formula.

Not that matter with existence in time, volume, charge and mass moving per second along a distance has ??? done what :) ??? converted into some sort of nothing that is called energy?
Even though energy is produced, as just one example, by electrons (matter) moving per second along the distances of wires and circuits??
Or, as another example, by steam (matter) moving pistons per second along the distance of the circumference of the wheels of a steam train????

Your statement: I have no idea what you mean when you say "Energy has mass"; produces a brain freeze in me. :) All 3 words are very simple, it is only a 3 word sentence.

Your statement: what is meant by E=Mc^2 is well understood by physicists; I am trying to show that it is not well understood.

FTJSMbyEED (C) 2012 Angela Michelle Joy Stahlfest-Moller.
Let's look at the full equation. E^2 = (mc^2)^2 + (pc)^2.

Why is the formula the same form as Pythagoras' Theorem for a right angle triangle, c^2=a^2+b^2?

Well most very big and very small things spin with respect to themselves as they move with respect to everything else.
For example, the earth's day is one revolution of the earth spinning with respect to itself and the earth's year is one orbit of the earth moving with respect to the sun.

The scale of reality, ie us, that does not appear to spin with respect to itself as it moves with respect to everything else; is of course made up of a multitude of very small objects that are spinning with respect to themselves as they move with the object.

A rotation with respect to self is clockwise or anticlockwise around the center of mass, or an arrow that forms a circle.
A movement with respect to everything else is a line extending away from the center of mass.
Put the two together and you get a circle intersected by a radial from the circle's center, an intersection that is defined as a right angle.

 © E^2 = (matter with existence in time, volume, mass and charge spinning with respect to itself (mc^2))^2 + (the same matter with existence in time, volume, mass and charge moving with respect to everything else (pc))^2. © 

FTJSMbyEED (C) 2012 Angela Michelle Joy Stahlfest-Moller.

Your statement: and practically applied frequently; is something that can happen without any understanding and/ or false explanations of how it is working.
For example fire has been used to cook and create for almost as long as we have existed, mostly without any understanding of what fire is or how it works. 

Thankyou for your time :)

1.0 FTJSMbyEED (C) 2012 Angela Stahlfest-Moller Details 2016-09-28 22:27:34.0
STATEMENT Relativistic momentum is not mass times speed

The problem with your theory is it ignores special relativity. In special relativity 

momentum=[mass/sqrt(1-v^2/c^2)]*v

1.0 Eric Details 2016-09-28 22:27:34.0
STATEMENT The words do have well defined meanings in physics

Read a book on special relativity. The words are well defined, and there is an extensive experimental basis backing up the theory.

1.0 Eric Details 2016-09-28 22:27:34.0
STATEMENT Yes it is. Special relativity momentum=[mass/sqrt(1-v^2/c^2)]*v = kgm/s = mass moving.

Your statement: The problem with your theory is it ignores special relativity; is both correct and incorrect.
You are correct when you say I ignore relativity, except for the Lorentz factor, but that is actually the strength of my theory. :)

Your statement: In special relativity momentum=[mass/sqrt(1-v^2/c^2)]*v; actually proves my point, rather than disproves it.
Special relativity momentum=[mass/sqrt(1-v^2/c^2)]*v = kgm/s = mass moving. 

Just some of the reasons I ignore relativity:

1. Starting with a solid and absolute base of pre 1900 scientific data and laws, if a theory builds up to a point where it says 'there is no solid and absolute base' – it is time to say the time honoured phrase 'Oh well, back to the drawing board ', because that line of thought just turned on itself and cancelled itself.

2. Perspective, not relativity, is everything.
Just because perspective changes how something is seen it does not mean the object or time or distance is in any way contracting or dilating.
Calling it frames of reference does not change the properties of perspective.

3.  TIME (s) and DISTANCE (m) are not connected because:
  a. taking any amount of volume that has been empty for 100 years and dividing it into 100 equal pieces gives each piece with 1/100th the volume but not 1/100th the time empty, each piece will still have been empty for 100 years and
  b. dividing an object 100 years old into 100 equal parts gives each part with 1/100th the mass, 1/100th the volume, 1/100th the charge but each piece is not instantly 1 year old.

 

1.0 FTJSMbyEED (C) 2012 Angela Stahlfest-Moller Details 2016-09-28 22:27:34.0
STATEMENT Define matter, mass, momentum, force and energy in words, please.

Your statement: there is an extensive experimental basis backing up the theory; is true only when interpreted via the distrotion of relativity.
If you start with a false statement accepted as true, you can prove anything.
All eggs are black and square accpeted as true proves chickens do not lay eggs. :)

Defintions:FTJSMbyEED (C) 2012 Angela Michelle Joy Stahlfest-Moller.

Matter has existence in time, volume, charge, mass, tensile strength and the ability to produce gravitational and electromagnetic forces.

Mass is a property of matter with units kg.

Momentum is matter moving with units kgm/s.

Force is:
1. The gravitational, elctromanetic, weak nuclear and strong nuclear forces are fundamental forces produced by matter, are infinitely directional towards or away from the center and do not require movement.
F = mass * acceleration applies so long as it is remembered the acceleration is due to the force produced by the matter and does not involve movement.
2. All other forces are due to matter moving per second, F = kg(m/s)/s and have a single constant or changing direction that is always the direction of movement of the matter.
3. With units (kgm/s)/s or kg((m/s)/s) or kgm/s^2 or Newtons.

Energy is matter moving per second along a distance with units ((kgm/s)/s)m or kgm^2/s^2 or Joules.
FTJSMbyEED (C) 2012 Angela Michelle Joy Stahlfest-Moller.

1.0 FTJSMbyEED (C) 2012 Angela Stahlfest-Moller Details 2016-09-28 22:27:34.0
STATEMENT Matter has existence in time, volume, charge, mass, tensile strength and the ability to produce gravitational and electromagnetic forces.

FTJSMbyEED (C) 2012 Angela Michelle Joy Stahlfest-Moller.


Matter has existence in time, volume, charge, mass, tensile strength and the ability to produce gravitational and electromagnetic forces.

A background of time exists and the universe exists within it.
Anything without volume is imaginary.
All base simple matter is charged poitive or negative. More complex groups of simple matter, ie us, are either an excess of positive or negative or equal amounts of both and neutral.
Anything without mass is imaginary.
All matter can be broken.
The gravitational force is due to the mass of matter.
The electromagnetic force is due to the charge of matter.

FTJSMbyEED (C) 2012 Angela Michelle Joy Stahlfest-Moller.

1.0 FTJSMbyEED (C) 2012 Angela Stahlfest-Moller Details 2016-09-28 22:27:34.0
STATEMENT It is always momentum and momentum per second, never just speed, velocity or acceleration.

FTJSMbyEED (C) 2012 Angela Michelle Joy Stahlfest-Moller.

 

It is always momentum and momentum per second, never just speed, velocity or acceleration


Speed, velocity and acceleration all can only exist as matter moving

Speed and velocity in equations involing a mass term are always momentum = kgm/s = matter moving.

Acceleration means moving per second = (m/s)/s = m/s^2.
In equations involving mass it is always momentum per second = (kgm/s)/s = kgm/s^2 = Newtons = Force.

Forces applied along distances, ie in industry where a force moves a piston to do work, is energy.
Force times distance is energy = (kgm/s^2)m = kgm^2/s^2 = momentum per second along a distance.

Energy is matter with existance in time, volume, charge and mass moving per second along a distance = (((kgm/s)/s)m) = Joules

FTJSMbyEED (C) 2012 Angela Michelle Joy Stahlfest-Moller.

1.0 FTJSMbyEED (C) 2012 Angela Stahlfest-Moller Details 2016-09-28 22:27:34.0
STATEMENT If too much simple reality is denied as false, all that is left is: Too much complex fantasy accepted as true.

If too much simple reality is denied as false, all that is left is: Too much complex fantasy accepted as true.

FTJSMbyEED (C) 2012 Angela Michelle Joy Stahlfest-Moller.
The simple reality is:
Mass = kg = Kilogram.
Momentum = kgm/s = mass moving = Trevor. :)
Force = kgm/s^2 = (kgm/s)/s = mass moving per second = Newton.
Energy = kgm^2/s^2 = ((kgm/s)/s)m = mass moving per second along a distance = Joule.
All these units contain kg = mass. 
Massless is not possible, it is a fantasy. 
FTJSMbyEED (C) 2012 Angela Michelle Joy Stahlfest-Moller.

 As for the photon:

It has energy (kgm^2/s^2), kilograms((m/s)/s)m, so following maths, science, logic and language; therefore energy and the photon have mass.

It has momentum, which is by definition mass times speed, therefore the photon has mass.

They also have force, as shown by the photelectric effect, therefore the photon has mass.

Photons are not massless, we just can't measure their mass seperate from thei momentum, force or energy.

FTJSMbyEED (C) 2012 Angela Michelle Joy Stahlfest-Moller.
Photons are created at emmision from the same bits that make protons, etc that are not currently parts of protons, etc, with full momentum transferred from emission source and inherent in the simple bits.

Photons can be bought to rest, that is what detection and absorbtion of them is. 
When detection or absorbtion happens they come apart back into the simple bits they formed from at emission and their momentum is retained by the simple bits and/or transfered to object detecting or absorbing.
That is what is happening when the sun heats us.
FTJSMbyEED (C) 2012 Angela Michelle Joy Stahlfest-Moller.

1.0 FTJSMbyEED (C) 2012 Angela Stahlfest-Moller Details 2016-09-28 22:27:34.0